tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post4273032510646365823..comments2024-02-16T08:32:46.618+00:00Comments on Donald Clark Plan B: Salon debate: What are Universities for?Donald Clarkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-55987346859251158982010-05-07T11:19:35.788+00:002010-05-07T11:19:35.788+00:00Rob - the 'Counterfire' site seems a littl...Rob - the 'Counterfire' site seems a little polemical. The confusion on numbers comes because people fold students who are not doing Philosophy alone into the mix i.e. mixed degrees and students just taking philosophy courses. The Middlesex department specialises in some topics, such a Marxism and psycho-analysis, that many see as peripheral to the subject (I agree with this view). Religious studies students also gets folded into the omelette and I draw the line at that one.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-21351195199864715332010-05-07T11:19:19.622+00:002010-05-07T11:19:19.622+00:00Rob - the 'Counterfire' site seems a littl...Rob - the 'Counterfire' site seems a little polemical. The confusion on numbers comes because people fold students who are not doing Philosophy alone into the mix i.e. mixed degrees and students just taking philosophy courses. The Middlesex department specialises in some topics, such a Marxism and psycho-analysis, that many see as peripheral to the subject (I agree with this view). Religious studies students also gets folded into the omelette and I draw the line at that one.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-60374184294185198372010-05-06T17:56:06.704+00:002010-05-06T17:56:06.704+00:00Thanks for the link to those blog posts!Thanks for the link to those blog posts!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00130961548729947667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-78693332068655629472010-05-06T13:20:18.508+00:002010-05-06T13:20:18.508+00:00Well, I don't know the figures, but this http...Well, I don't know the figures, but <a href="http://www.counterfire.org/index.php/blogs/109-the-third-estate/4803-middlesex-university-shamefully-cuts-philosophy-department" rel="nofollow">this</a> http://www.counterfire.org/index.php/blogs/109-the-third-estate/4803-middlesex-university-shamefully-cuts-philosophy-department seems to suggest that they have over 40 doing MA alone.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11647405720597546140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-31920677612464572742010-05-06T10:09:16.833+00:002010-05-06T10:09:16.833+00:00Rob. I'm a Philosophy graduate, and adore the ...Rob. I'm a Philosophy graduate, and adore the subject, but Philosophy has seen an unprecedented expansion in UK Universities over the last decade. At Middlesex there's 12 philosophy students and 6 staff. One member of staff for every two students. It makes no sense when there's demand in other areas. The bottom line here, and there is a bottom line, is that foreign students don't do these subjects, yet foreign students subsidise UK staff and students. This means getting the fuel mixture right, not protectionism over every subject in every University.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-37146715136400031822010-05-06T07:07:40.050+00:002010-05-06T07:07:40.050+00:00I agree the split is damaging. Something like the ...I agree the split is damaging. Something like the IB to replace A levels might help.<br />By the way, Philosophy at Middx is threatened:<br />http://savemdxphil.com/Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11647405720597546140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-88934495964180041032010-05-05T16:26:15.070+00:002010-05-05T16:26:15.070+00:00Read the article Rob, but what seems to be missing...Read the article Rob, but what seems to be missing is a genuine debate about what the system is and should be. The system is so resistant to change that any change is automatically seen as 'bad. Rather than shape its own future it builds up deficits and inefficiencies and real estate to bursting point, then someone steps in to curb the excesses. There was no cut to the research budget this year by HEFCE and after 10 years of relentless expansion it is about time the system was reassessed. The Browne Report is expected later this year but much of the debate has been at the hysterical level (not you!).<br />One observation - the English educational system with its early humanities/science split at A-Level seems to engender a war between the two sides ate all levels. Is this healthy?Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-24057300514032950412010-05-05T14:18:20.294+00:002010-05-05T14:18:20.294+00:00You're right, not just arts and humanities- bu...You're right, not just arts and humanities- but with both maijor parties stressing that the only growth will come through the so-called STEM subjects, and with caps on numbers, it's not hard to see where the axe will increasingly fall. <a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/4968179/University-departments-facing-closure.html" rel="nofollow">Here's</a> just one article of many which show how departments across the subject areas are being downsized or closed.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11647405720597546140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-38071421351096512502010-05-05T10:30:05.812+00:002010-05-05T10:30:05.812+00:00Hans:
I blogged on evidence for recording lecture...Hans: <br />I blogged on evidence for recording lectures with some links http://donaldclarkplanb.blogspot.com/search?q=trieste<br /><br />Rob:<br />As I understand it, the Department of Philosophy (my degree subject) is not closing, some academics are going, that is different. Kings is under intense financial pressure and is doing what every University will have to do, realigning its priorities, even within that department. The problem is that every redundancy is treated like a major tragedy. Academic institutions have to shape themselves up for the future and choose some subjects over others. It is rarely a matter of closing down departments.<br />Interestingly, at Sussex, the cuts are certainly not in the arts and humanities but primarily in Science. What the critics fail to point out is the recruitment of other academics to strengthen the institution. It's all too one sided.<br />You have a very good point on political alma maters. That's why I like the current Labour cabinet. Few of the very top people went to Oxbridge and neither did Alan Langlands the CEO of HEFCE ( a great supporter of Universities in the wider sense). They don't have that level of snobbery and are genuinely inclusive in their thinking on HE, especially Gordon Brown.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-27374965641850130032010-05-05T07:39:49.058+00:002010-05-05T07:39:49.058+00:00As you say, the change is likely to come through b...As you say, the change is likely to come through brutal cuts rather than strategically targeted change. Already, whole departments (Philosophy at King's is just one) are earmarked for closure despite having world class reputations. Arts and Humanities will suffer disproportionately, because cuts there are easier to justify on (often spurious) economic grounds. Yes, some dead wood will go in the process, but a lot of live wood too. Academics with excellent records in every respect are already being shown the door, and the pace will accelerate markedly after the election. But somehow, I can't see mass redundancies at the alma maters of the likely members of the new cabinet.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11647405720597546140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-77984400555929899552010-05-04T18:21:58.069+00:002010-05-04T18:21:58.069+00:00Hello Donald,
In your post you refer to research ...Hello Donald,<br /><br />In your post you refer to research about the effectiveness of capturing lectures. <br /><br />Could you give me some pointers to where I might find that particular research?<br /><br />Thanks in advance,<br /><br />HansHans de Zwarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01593807096308192349noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-53737186667165773282010-05-03T16:03:51.775+00:002010-05-03T16:03:51.775+00:00This post is such wonderful lesson in problem solv...This post is such wonderful lesson in problem solving. Here in India,the students slog and P professors have a good time taking private tutions at home. Thanks for such educational posts.Rinahttp://rinatripathi.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-5936634027053986622010-05-03T09:51:47.316+00:002010-05-03T09:51:47.316+00:00Thanks Rob, I think this post gets to the heart of...Thanks Rob, I think this post gets to the heart of the matter. The system has become gummed up due to 1) an excess of third rate research, 2) a distain for teaching (and often students), 3) procedures that protect inefficiency. This suggests, as you say, the need for a dramatic sea-change. I wish that would come from within, from people who really care about building the future rather than protecting the past. I suspect, however, that it will come through brutal cuts.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-42177007196414681612010-05-03T09:06:33.286+00:002010-05-03T09:06:33.286+00:00Hi Donald - yes, I agree, there is dead wood, and ...Hi Donald - yes, I agree, there is dead wood, and it needs cutting out. But the elaborate procedures and appeal system make it a long, time-consuming process. I do know of staff who have been rooted out, and it has taken literally years to do it. And one of the major associated problems with the RAE- driven culture is that academics will often be able to say that they have met their performance targets by publishing 4 papers or book chapters or whatever, and that they have never been given a performance target related to the quality of teaching. That's because, as you hint at in your post, many academics, particularly in the higher-ranked universities, have always worked in an environment where students and teaching have been a distant second priority after research. So we need a real sea-change in attitudes.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11647405720597546140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-37734244827277244252010-05-02T22:25:34.469+00:002010-05-02T22:25:34.469+00:00Fair enough, but the key phrase for me is "is...Fair enough, but the key phrase for me is "isn't performing their duties". It strikes me, that unlike almost every other are of human endeavour, the 'duties' are largely absent. You can be an appalling teacher, third rate researcher and bum about for months and years on end, yet still draw the salary and pension. Why don't the good guys sort this out by agreeing to more rigour in teaching and standards, below which colleagues shouldn't drop. It strikes me that more rigorous management is needed, not less. Surely teaching and research would be better without the dead wood.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-40017711487334636042010-05-02T18:40:34.201+00:002010-05-02T18:40:34.201+00:00Sorry, I didn't address the point about what w...Sorry, I didn't address the point about what would replace the RAE / REF. Well, nothing. Other countries manage perfectly well without one, and we did before 2001.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11647405720597546140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-12411295753723126282010-05-02T18:38:56.382+00:002010-05-02T18:38:56.382+00:00Donald - yes we know who the laggards are, and I h...Donald - yes we know who the laggards are, and I have spent many a weary hour trying to get people to address the issue, but in my experience, if you so much as suggest that someone isn't performing their duties properly, the grievance procedures and accusations of bullying arrive the next day. <br />Your last point about cancer research - which has hundreds of millions devoted to it - really confirms what I said. Yes, most people's response would be that cancer research is more important than social history research. I would argue that a civilised society needs both, and Martha Nussbaum's article offers a good rationale for that. And let's face it, neither you nor I know anything about Prof.Dyhouse's research beyond its main focus. Keeping an open mind is important isn't it?Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11647405720597546140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-77170624163513688622010-05-02T18:03:38.622+00:002010-05-02T18:03:38.622+00:00Thanks for these responses. On the REF, what would...Thanks for these responses. On the REF, what would you suggest to replace them, as there has to be some attempt at the objective comparisons to channel funding to the right people, places and topics.<br />On managers, I still think that the vast majority of so-called managers are academics and ex-academics. My point was that there was a misconception that they were largely non-academic people.<br />On the calendar - I agree, some are changing but all too slowly.<br />Where we disagree is on the utilitarian intent. I don't really think this is true. Sure there's been extra funding for the sciences and maths, but only in response to societal changes. In fact, over the last decade there's been a huge expansion of the Universities and therefore a huge expansion in the humanities.<br />On Carol Dyhouse - she annoyed me because her 'cheap shot' was the idea that some abstract managers were irrationally 'fingering' some of her friends. I think this is bollocks. As you know academics know damn well who the laggards are in their departments, but do little to sort them out themselves, so that when someone else does it for them, they can apportion blame. I'm sure she's brilliant, but 'Burlesque'? Give me the cancer researchers any day.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-40072141787919731112010-05-02T17:33:27.756+00:002010-05-02T17:33:27.756+00:00As ever, lots of interesting, and occasionally con...As ever, lots of interesting, and occasionally contentious stuff here. I would agree that teaching is central. The problem in recent years has been that the emphasis on the RAE (now the REF) has meant that university rankings and income have been very heavily tied to perceived excellence in research. The analogy would be with the way SATs and league tables hijacked the agenda in schools. If perceived worth wasn't so much wrapped up in research, then more attention would be paid to T&L. <br />Any incoming govt. could save loads of money with absolutely no impact on the quality of HE by scrapping the REF.<br />On the question of managers, you are right up to a point. Many managers are, of course, career academics, but increasingly they are recruited from outside the sector. I have come across several who had no experience of HE before being recruited from big business. And the ones that were academics do have a habit of forgetting very quickly what life in the classroom is like, and I could give you lots of chapter and verse on that.<br />The calendar is changing. Where I work we have a number of start dates for different courses through the year, and I've commented before on usage during non-term time. I'm sure Oxbridge colleges are deserted when the students have "gone down", or whatever the phrase is, but certainly in the post-92 institutions I know, there is a lot of activity through the year, and rightly so.<br />On lectures, you are right - I agree about recording, and have done so for some years now: students tell me they listen on their iPods while shopping. There will need to be a much better emphasis on teaching skill as an essential attribute of an academic if we are to raise the standard, I'm sure you'll agree. The irony is that the subject centres, which were set up to do that very thing, are now threatened by the cuts.<br />On the broader question of what universities are for, my feeling is that we have gone too far down a utilitarian route that sees the only real outcome as a job. I think they can, and should, be about more than that. As an academic in the humanities, my position is under threat by this new orthodoxy, so I suppose I would say that, but I would urge everyone interested in HE to read Martha Nussbaum's piece (unfortunately not online) in the current TLS, which makes, in my view, a brilliant (and practical) case for the study of the humanities. <br />Which brings me to the cheap shot at the end of your post on the professor of history. She is, I take it, Carol Dyhouse, and I'm sure she will have been well up to speed on the points you made about the history of universities, since she's the author of 'Students: A Gendered History' which examines the history of HE from a feminist perspective. Her current work on glamour, as far as I can see, seems to be a fascinating piece of research into the changing perceptions of femininity and fashion, and how society constructs images of women. I'd have thought it's exactly the sort of real-world research that humanities scholars are frequently enjoined to do.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11647405720597546140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-29239669000742483422010-05-02T13:13:21.567+00:002010-05-02T13:13:21.567+00:00I agree Andy that it has become more commoditised ...I agree Andy that it has become more commoditised but that's largely, in my opinion, because the system has refused to change and is stuck in an old paradigm. The steps I've recommended would decommoditise the system, allowing them to do more for less.<br />One thing about the commoditising argument is that it is most often uttered by parents who actually mean 'Too many people go to University, BUT MY KIDS ARE DIFFERENT'.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-9064142801579345892010-05-02T09:44:38.387+00:002010-05-02T09:44:38.387+00:00No real comment except to say a fabulous posting.No real comment except to say a fabulous posting.Clive Shepherdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02798059102416534284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-20047676837592337092010-05-01T23:56:59.018+00:002010-05-01T23:56:59.018+00:00Entertaining blog (as ever) Donald.
I can't a...Entertaining blog (as ever) Donald.<br /><br />I can't agree with all of it, for example 'Are universities more about research than teaching? Discuss' - but I think the broad thrust of your argument is against the commodisation of tertiary education we have seen since you or I were 21.<br /><br />Being a BSc or BA is not the differentiator it was, but getting a degree costs a mint, there is a problem brewing there.<br /><br />Meanwhile, the last generation to get 'free' uni can get funding for doctoral reseach if they are prepared to do it in Cool Britannia fields...Andy Teddhttp://andytedd.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com