tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post3348743995638300191..comments2024-02-16T08:32:46.618+00:00Comments on Donald Clark Plan B: 10 reasons to NOT teach Latin (reductio ad absurdum)Donald Clarkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comBlogger217125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-47842716664328789392021-01-02T04:52:43.966+00:002021-01-02T04:52:43.966+00:00I started reading these opinions to help me decide...I started reading these opinions to help me decide whether to learn Latin. In fact I did glean much of value, but gave up after too many posts from both sides making personal attacks on those with opposite points of view. Personal attacks serve only to relieve the feelings of the attacker. They do not take the place of reasoned argument, an in fact nullify the attacker's expressed opinions.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11716464315027508141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-26733398113109580142021-01-02T04:51:57.421+00:002021-01-02T04:51:57.421+00:00I started reading these opinions to help me decide...I started reading these opinions to help me decide whether to learn Latin. In fact I did glean much of value, but gave up after too many posts from both sides making personal attacks on those with opposite points of view. Personal attacks serve only to relieve the feelings of the attacker. They do not take the place of reasoned argument, an in fact nullify the attacker's expressed opinions.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11716464315027508141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-89879212517595368682020-12-05T19:05:07.110+00:002020-12-05T19:05:07.110+00:00Wow there are so many incredible reasons for learn...Wow there are so many incredible reasons for learning Latin....<br /><br />It shows you the etymology of other words you never even thought of being related to each other and puts english into a completely new perspective if you are a writer.<br /><br />Yes the grammar is difficult but you can find spoken communities on the app discord and practice. <br /><br />It is a beautiful language and has its merits.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-61494421335371656702018-03-23T10:18:21.705+00:002018-03-23T10:18:21.705+00:00Donald,
Amazing job trolling everyone... that...Donald, <br /><br />Amazing job trolling everyone... that's what this was, right? Your arguments were so ignorant (I understand this was your intention) that I couldn't believe how many people fell for this. I mean, you managed to reel in some rock-solid counterarguments from some smart people. The joke's on them. I especially enjoyed the juvenile insults you dished out. Classic trolling. Keep up the great work! <br /><br />Sincerely,<br />Anonymous<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-1412065274367314782017-09-15T00:48:42.291+00:002017-09-15T00:48:42.291+00:00This is an extremely poorly argued piece, and it d...This is an extremely poorly argued piece, and it doesn't build a remotely persuasive argument against the study of Latin in schools. <br /><br />Contrary to what Clark's flawed, pseudo-scientific studies may imply, Latin does not weaken a person's facility with other languages. Nor is Latin useless and irrelevant to an appreciation of English. I wouldn't necessarily recommend a Japanese person learn Latin, but more than a third of all English words have Latin roots (whereas apparently only around 5 percent of English words derive from Greek), and fluency in Latin tends to make abstract words in English no longer feel abstract, but concrete, tactile, and alive. Shakespeare, and indeed almost all the major poets in English, had a solid grounding in Latin that informed their style, and it would have been utterly Impossible for Shakespeare to have achieved what he did without Latin. <br /><br />Clark, operating from a position of bellicose ignorance, snidely disparages posters who suggest that a translation is not an adequate substitute for the original language. And yet, that really is the case. I have read Balzac and Proust in the original French, and Nietzsche in the original German, and I can tell you that some of the translations out there are very fine and can give you almost the full meaning and reverberation of the original texts. But the same CANNOT be said of any translation I've encountered of Virgil, Ovid, Juvenal, or Horace. The peculiarities of Latin syntax and grammar constitute a real stumbling block to effective translation. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-22099009632256834752017-08-26T20:57:34.369+00:002017-08-26T20:57:34.369+00:00Thanks, I came to the conversation late. I'm n...Thanks, I came to the conversation late. I'm not for nor against, though I've passed a few years in a Latin class myself. While I wish I knew another language fluently, I am grateful that I took Latin because until my second year, I never fully realized how little I understood my native language. At the time, I could easily read and write my language relatively well, I didn't understand it nor why it's the way it is. But then again... I'm an information freak (I have seven kids and NONE of them care!).Teraisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09139405603290971568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-58996592316208856752016-10-10T00:25:32.769+00:002016-10-10T00:25:32.769+00:00English, is 50/50 Latin and Germanic, ie 50/50 Lat...English, is 50/50 Latin and Germanic, ie 50/50 Latin and English.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05275775920656311509noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-73413132256201326052016-10-09T09:11:28.845+00:002016-10-09T09:11:28.845+00:00I have to agree with the chap above (Anonymous). I...I have to agree with the chap above (Anonymous). It is thought that learning languages (and music) increases cognitive puissance and staves off dementia. I learned Latin at 33 years old (I did not have the chance when young) and since doing so my mastery of the English language has been significantly enhanced. Your post about Latin displays the greatest level of ignorance about a profound language which you do not understand much less are capable of appreciating. Learn Latin, then you will be qualified to criticise it from a position of authority.Anglynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07144805897143108045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-45909131220772283012016-07-06T14:10:37.919+00:002016-07-06T14:10:37.919+00:00You are a bigot, which is why you are against lear...You are a bigot, which is why you are against learning Latin. Simple. I can see it very clearly. You simply don't like the Latin culture and are against anything Latin. Your blog makes a lot of sense when we know a person who hates everything Latin is writing it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-625985196782384192016-07-03T11:01:58.988+00:002016-07-03T11:01:58.988+00:00Alan Turning went to secondary school on the first...Alan Turning went to secondary school on the first day of the 1926 General Strike.<br /><br />When the boy was 14, his headmaster called in his parents, and said something like this. "Look, we all, know that young Alan is a whizz at mathematics, but if he wants to consider himself educated, he must stick-in at his Latin".<br /><br />With the weight of that idiocy still to be felt in our education system, is it any wonder that the STEM subjects have less appeal than they ought?Iain Fraser Grigornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-42222112392574057932016-06-16T05:03:13.307+00:002016-06-16T05:03:13.307+00:00I did 5 years of Latin and was a really poor stude...I did 5 years of Latin and was a really poor student, but have retained much of it esp Vocabulary. In retrospect, 3 of the brightest guys in school went to Oxford and read Greats (Latin & Greek) and became school teachers teaching Latin, kind of perpetuating the whole process but possibly loosing minds that might have been better applied.Dr mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-42774984467119274882016-06-01T16:02:39.336+00:002016-06-01T16:02:39.336+00:00Latin is not a dead language.
The Catholic Church ...Latin is not a dead language.<br />The Catholic Church just published its standard text of the Bible, the Nova Vulgata.<br /><br />For a Church that is worldwide, this has several undeniable benefits as an earlier Catechism stated so well<br /><br />Q. 566. Why does the Church use the Latin language instead of the national language of its children?<br /><br />A. The Church uses the Latin language instead of the national language of its children:<br /> 1. To avoid the danger of changing any part of its teaching in using different languages;<br /> 2. That all its rulers may be perfectly united and understood in their communications;<br /> 3. To show that the Church is not an institute of any particular nation, but the guide of all nations.<br /><br />And witnessing an African monk speak to a Chinese priest using Latin would seal it for me. Trent the Wonder Doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14644138419889858118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-67039742125600496132016-06-01T15:59:12.686+00:002016-06-01T15:59:12.686+00:00I became a Latin teacher by conscription. My havin...I became a Latin teacher by conscription. My having taken Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Syriac, and Aramaic was a recommendation when a local latin teacher became sick. And most of your argument is just false, in the extreme.<br /><br />three points right off the bat :<br /><br />1) Yes, Latin just might be the first time a student (esp nowadays) learns any grammar at all.<br /><br />2) Books like the Vulgate (which had a thousand years influence) define culture. As does the Roman influence on our laws, government, and Founders.<br /><br />3) Logically an argument can be made that a second language, any, will be a source of illumination about thought and the expression of thought. Is Greek better ? That's a false alternative since there is much in Roman culture that recapitulates Greek culture. For example see <br />The Roman Search for Wisdom <br />by Michael K. Kellogg<br /><br />MOST ODD to me is your silence about the modern lack of Civics classes and philosophy classes and critical thinking classes and speech classes. A good dose of Augustine or Cicero will take care of the latter 3 and Roman law and government will do ably for the first.<br /><br />Trent the Wonder Doghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14644138419889858118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-18188879410719128912016-05-24T02:59:37.197+00:002016-05-24T02:59:37.197+00:00I learned Latin for 3 years, and I believe that it...I learned Latin for 3 years, and I believe that it could help someone in say History or certain Art subjects, nonetheless I was forced to do Latin for 3 years and it so far has proved no benefit to my life. Latin should be an option in schools for those passionate to learn it, but for those who are not interested should be able to choose another subject.<br /><br />We have to remember that Latin is a dead language, it is no longer used in todays society, it is a language for historians and such. It is a tiring language to learn, you must be very dedicated to learn such a burden of a language. And to want to put yourself under the pressure of learning such a language is stupid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-76947284310852797232016-05-04T14:11:20.525+00:002016-05-04T14:11:20.525+00:00Once you have learned how to read, write, and do a...Once you have learned how to read, write, and do arithmetic, you have exceeded the "practical" applications of any formal schooling.<br /><br />Most people go through life without (consciously) using algebra.<br />Most people go through life without knowing the actual origin of their own National holidays.<br />Most people go through life without needing to speak any foreign language.<br />Most people go through life (amazingly and sadly) without reading literature of any sort past school.<br /><br />So why do we teach algebra, geometry, calculus, history, modern foreign language, English literature, philosophy, humanities etc. at all?<br /><br />Of course any of these courses contains some value. Some of it is potential, future-job value. If you plan to go into engineering, then more advanced math and physics is helpful. If you plan to be a writer, then English literature (and as many foreign literatures as you can handle) is helpful. But all of their value is subjective.<br /><br />Latin lets you practice thinking logically; it does not guarantee that you can, but it gives you a rich culture playground to expand your critical thought. Like it or not, Latin language and culture has huge relevance in daily life (if you choose to look for it).<br /><br />The main value is that it provides so much potential for critical thinking. Again, this potential will not be realized in all students. It is the responsibility of the teachers to teach the students critical thinking, analysis, logic and all the rest, using the amazingly versatile tool that is Latin.<br /><br />As for Latin versus a modern, used language. Modern languages get tied down by forcing students to become fluent in communication. Modern languages change, and because they are so widely used, there are many different dialects and variations. Latin does not change (except for the creation of new vocabulary to benefit the few who still use it to communicate).<br /><br />Sure, it could be replaced with any other discipline. But Latin works well, and anything beyond reading, writing, and arithmetic is "unnecessary" in a practical sense anyway.JPKerpan@gmailcomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17909474975549041404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-6322581901314910852016-02-21T22:06:49.393+00:002016-02-21T22:06:49.393+00:00Latin doesn't have to be required in school or...Latin doesn't have to be required in school or part of a core curriculum, but it's good to offer it -- as well as lots of other less commonly taught languages -- to people who are interested in learning it. Because we can now use MOOCs or other similar platforms for teaching online across time zones, there's no reason not to make it possible for people to study all sorts of languages that happen to interest them.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-58264398870925740182016-01-26T23:03:12.067+00:002016-01-26T23:03:12.067+00:00And the letter J didn't exist until the 14th c...And the letter J didn't exist until the 14th century but it's used world wide and has become the first letter in the name of a very popular diety. I believe the point is being led astray. <br /><br />I will first say that I am not a woman of the world and have been publicly/self educated my entire life, ok moving forward. <br /><br />As a middle-class person, I find you extremely pompous and flagrantly condescending. Why are you so moved to write a blog attacking the reasons one would chose to study Latin? Honestly who cares? <br />You chose not to, good for you. Besides that pedestal you're standing on probably doesn't have much more room for your ego to get any larger. <br />The point of learning a language is just that, learning it. The outcome/application is mute, just as many college degrees are. seeing how many graduates never end up working in their chosen field.<br /><br />I find this entire post utterly unhelpful with my decision to/not to teach latin to my children. You have failed to touch on any of the real questions that plague this decision and instead have babbled on and on, spitting snobbery with no real goal other than attempting to prove how your opinion is valid. <br />If you want to help, then help. This is just arrogance for conversation sake. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05861790020673676951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-75445367453780141512016-01-23T06:02:59.627+00:002016-01-23T06:02:59.627+00:00Just a comment about the accessibility of texts in...Just a comment about the accessibility of texts in another language. Of course we must take into account that there are different kinds of texts. A simple narrative like Eutropius' Breviarium Historiae Romanae doesn't suffer much in translation. But I think you miss a lot of the art of the Aeneid or Metamorphoses if you don't read (or more to the point listen to or recite) it in Latin. These epic poems do not depend upon rhyme; rather they depend upon a very strict meter. Not to put too fine a point on in but without an appreciation for the meter you're only getting a good story told in descriptive, colorful language; you are not getting the art of Virgil and Ovid.<br /><br />I happen to like Latin and working through translations is something I find stimulating. Any argument you make about not teaching Latin can be just as easily applied to any non-utilitarian academic pursuit e.g. Art History or perhaps even English Literature. I believe a true Liberal Arts education in the Humanities requires a submission to the subject matter and that that submission helps to develop a clarity of thought and self-awareness.<br /><br />To study Latin, in the end, is to learn a discipline. You can either render a Latin text into idiomatic English, while staying true to the original text, or you can't. What you use it for is less important than developing the skill to do it.John DiNovohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15686601895632429824noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-48089029960729142252016-01-14T20:28:35.802+00:002016-01-14T20:28:35.802+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-81345198141416184262016-01-14T19:33:31.403+00:002016-01-14T19:33:31.403+00:00Therefore Donald Clark, you too must have a hard t...Therefore Donald Clark, you too must have a hard time reading some of the greats like Virgil, seeing as you are but a "amateur classicist" also, are you just feeling sorry that you didn't get to shout random phrases like "as victorem" in your school quiz?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02532353066827807616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-54222720317775862322016-01-14T19:23:24.538+00:002016-01-14T19:23:24.538+00:00I totally agree with you, I too studied Latin at G...I totally agree with you, I too studied Latin at GCSE level and found it genuinely useful in history and literature! There is nothing wrong with Latin, and let me remind all of the other idiots who think it is useless, let me remind you that it is subjects like Latin that help you get into Russell Group Universities!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02532353066827807616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-81690967150341890412016-01-09T23:53:11.096+00:002016-01-09T23:53:11.096+00:00Dear All,
Latin's just the battlefield here. ...Dear All,<br /><br />Latin's just the battlefield here. The argument, the battle, the issue, between the legions and the barbarian is of course utility in education. On one side, education is evaluated by its utility post-delivery, (by the barbarian), the other, education has an intrinsic value which is indivisible regardless of utility.<br /><br />Imagine any subject or topic rated on a scale from useful to esoteric. Latin occupies a position somewhere on the scale; we'll never know which position. We argue about the position it should be perceived to occupy, but victory either way won't make it so.<br /><br />Instead, could we try shifting the question, or introducing new questions?<br /><br />1. Should the state fund study for its own sake, where that study offers debatable benefit to the state?<br /><br />2. Should the state fund, or prefer funding, for study which will deliver more productivity?<br /><br />3. Is productivity the right measure of utility? If it is, what measure of productivity shall we use to prefer specific studies? Relationship to future earnings by the individual student? Likelihood of political, economic, technological or environmental benefit to the state? Relative supremacy by comparison with other nation states? Perhaps professional balance should be the measure, whereby the education system is designed to deliver trainees in proportion to anticipated demand by professional and non-professional labour sectors? <br /><br />4. Will design of the preferred system of education entail grading of students potential, perhaps on the basis of genetic analysis, or instead by learning potential measured at ages prior to selection of subjects and intended duration / complexity of study?<br /><br />5. If genetic manipulation emerges as a viable opportunity for social engineering, will it be desirable to generate populations suited to particular levels of study and thereby preferred life trajectories?<br /><br />6. Will correct answers to the questions above deliver a Brave New World?<br /><br />7. Contrarily, might it be more natural, and perhaps healthy in ways we may not be able to calculate in terms of utility, to allow the continuation of learning for its own sake? Will the availability of Latin, Ancient Greek, Middle Egyptian, cuneiform, and the reading of any other material, perhaps be considered the provision of food for individual minds, such that they may satisfy, diversify and refine their appetite as their development continues?<br /><br />8. If this availability seems to have intrinsic merit for the development of a society of individuals, will it be preferred to restrict it to the rich? May we identify any opportunity to benefit our society by offering variety of learning to all? <br /><br />I'm submitting these questions rhetorically of course, and anonymously too, just because I can't be bothered to create a username, (which would of course be anonymous also). I believe however that it is neither for me nor any individual nor any group to answer these finally. Let the supply of and demand for educational material and learning platforms fluctuate as they will, and always have. We shall experience the practical merits of the provision we select, as well as the quality of pleasure we derive from the experience of learning through this provision. A new debate will ensue, and we shall all choose to reflect on these same perpetual questions anew, or not if we don't care enough.<br /><br />Good luck with your battle Barbarian. Good luck legions.<br /><br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-19564477987051135742016-01-02T07:59:27.357+00:002016-01-02T07:59:27.357+00:00I, personally, love Latin. However, I dont think i...I, personally, love Latin. However, I dont think it should be a required part of any educational curriculum save the sciences in institutions of higher learning. If I had taken Latin in high school I would have hated it and been no better off. I study Latin as an adult for a couple reasons. First off, I enjoy it. Secondly, it helps in my other fields of study, namely botanical taxonomy. Thirdly, I am a firm believer that once you stop learning, you start forgetting...I'm sure you will be surprised to learn I also casually study Greek and Old Icelandic, which is as close to the language of my norse ancestors as you can get. I respect Mr. Clark's opinion as it is his right to think what he wants.<br /><br />Respectfully,<br />JCM<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-72148569357960151582015-11-21T03:02:56.018+00:002015-11-21T03:02:56.018+00:00Modern neuroscience shows that all learning is abo...Modern neuroscience shows that all learning is about <b>specificity</b>. That means we should study <b>exactly</b> the skill we want to master. In other words if you want to be a concert pianist you must study the piano instead of the cello or flute. Likewise to master English you must speak and read English rather than lean a foreign language.Brishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05771534538377496202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-16073606106359338812015-11-12T19:31:33.965+00:002015-11-12T19:31:33.965+00:00Exactly. My argument is nto that you shouldn;t lea...Exactly. My argument is nto that you shouldn;t learn Latin but that it should not be a subject that is taught in a contemporary educational system. On the latter point, I'd rather that the Vatican stayed away from young people altogether, for reasons that are all too obvious!Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.com