tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post3349081810270395952..comments2024-02-16T08:32:46.618+00:00Comments on Donald Clark Plan B: Moodle: e-learning’s FrankensteinDonald Clarkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-14945403605996374452013-01-17T11:00:10.360+00:002013-01-17T11:00:10.360+00:00provocative post to say the least. The problem is ...provocative post to say the least. The problem is i already found it in a discussion about Moodle used as "evidence" moodle does not work and has no future. Not happy about that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-44882844473585711672010-03-23T02:16:17.967+00:002010-03-23T02:16:17.967+00:00Donald, Seriously please list these LMS systems th...Donald, Seriously please list these LMS systems that do support collaboration. But if it is simply a suite of tools that enabled unstructured chat, discussion, video conferencing etc then that is where the problem is... Quite frankly the LMS matters little as long as it has a good simple easy to use toolset. The teacher does the teaching not the LMS. But a good LMS that goes further and allows structured activities based around the classics allowing debate, group work, questions being posed and reflected on etc is more useful. Sadly most systems don't go that extra mile or are too clumsy to attempt to set these up in a simple manner...Andrew Chambershttp://www.asb.unsw.edu.au/FUTURESTUDENTS/POSTGRADUATE/MBT/Pages/default.aspxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-42886083829794205172010-03-23T01:54:16.927+00:002010-03-23T01:54:16.927+00:00One problem with this article and the associated d...One problem with this article and the associated discussion about constructivism is that in reality constructivism is a theory. Like others I have been in this business many years and finally work in a graduate program which uses facilitation of learning over the traditional lecture style approach. And yes this is even used for face to face classes and not just distance. How did this all start I have no idea. But the outcome for the student isn't based around a debate on the best LMS, the best teaching theory or whatever. It is based around the practice of teaching in a particular way that suits the students, teachers, administration etc. Having said that trying to introduce Vista 4 then Blackboard 9 in comparison with our earlier LMS has shown that students don't particularly like LMS systems. They want activities, discussion, debate, posed questions, readings etc. A lot of these exist in our old LMS and do not exist in any present LMS. Just go look at the discussion system in Blackboard 9 or any LMS. Where are the structured activities??? All LMS systems fail on constructivism. The teacher does the scaffolding, the facilitation. None of the systems support this in any sensible way. Rock on our sadly deprecated no longer supported WebTeach system still loved by our students... And you know what it did? What it only did? Enabled facilitated active discussion just like a facilitated tutor driven classroom... Students don't like being lectured to...Andrew Chambershttp://www.asb.unsw.edu.au/FUTURESTUDENTS/POSTGRADUATE/MBT/Pages/default.aspxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-74081038136218727142010-03-15T18:51:31.856+00:002010-03-15T18:51:31.856+00:00Yes, lots of LMS and other software that provide c...Yes, lots of LMS and other software that provide collaboration - just pointing out that that's one aspect of Moodle which could be said to support constructivist learning.<br /><br />No, Moodle didn't invent collaboration in software - I certainly wasn't trying to suggest that!<br /><br />And while 'students doing stuff' isn't in itself constructivist learning, it's hard to implement constructivist learning in an environment where 'students doing stuff' isn't possible...Paul Lefthttp://www.verso.co.nznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-6574396763981329292010-03-15T13:21:57.495+00:002010-03-15T13:21:57.495+00:00Paul - I see what you maen, but there's dozens...Paul - I see what you maen, but there's dozens of other LMSs, many in the corporate sector and other open source software, other than Blackboard, that provide rich collaboration. The LMS/VLE market has been around for over decades, way before Moodle was ever dreamt of. I suppose my point was that colaborative techniques are not unique to Moodle and Moodle certainly didn't invent studenet collaboration in software. My beef is with teh whole 'constructivist' claim - which is simply a synonym for 'students doing stuff for themsleves'.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-11055541790702999732010-03-15T08:23:48.610+00:002010-03-15T08:23:48.610+00:00Quote: It’s really just a standard collection of l...<i>Quote: It’s really just a standard collection of learning management tools with no real pedagogic innovation or intent. There’s nothing in Moodle that wasn’t, or isn’t, in other LMSs or VLEs if you will. </i><br /><br />This seems overly simplistic to me. The pedagogic intent is evidenced not just in a tool but in how that tool is implemented. eg the glossary is BB is not collaborative, it's a tool for 'instructors' to post a certain type of content. The glossary in Moodle (like other tools) can be truly collaborative in that students can (if enabled) post and edit glossary entries and comments on entries.<br /><br />Moodle reflects a constructivist approaches in that it allows for such collaboration and student-generated content in addition to teacher-generated content.<br /><br />I've been using Moodle and BB for quite a few years for professional development and I know which I'd rather use: Moodle has quite a few drawbacks but it doesn't constrain my use of collaborative activities anywhere near as much as BB does.Paul Lefthttp://www.verso.co.nznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-74368488360370057822010-03-12T12:08:43.939+00:002010-03-12T12:08:43.939+00:00No this is the 'cost' but not the full cos...No this is the 'cost' but not the full cost. The figure is on the OU website:<br />http://www.open.ac.uk/openlearn/about-us/faq-cost.php<br />In fact they spent a lot more, as the accounting system is not a fully consolidated cost. Many other costs are hidden in University projects such as these.<br /><br />My statement about Moodle being a cul-de-sac was in terms of the perceptions of other developers, not the OU. A huge amount of money was spent on this code development but many Moodle developers didn't see it as a great leap forward, as they though it was poorly implemented. To be fair, that's almost always the case in Open Source. This was just OpenLearn. There's a large cost in post 2005 integration for the mainstream LMS activity which is around £7-8 million. Again one needs to be careful on costs here, as it's always more complicated (and more expensive) than stated. Incidentally, there's a very good paper on this:<br />http://oro.open.ac.uk/15283/<br /><br />Nevertheless, I agree that this may have been the right approach in terms of comparative costs. Note that I'm a huge fan of the OU and regard it as the one of the greatest achievements in UK education in the 20th century. I mean that. I should add that I'm not a great fan of their cost structure and curriculum development costs. The whole edifice was nearly brought down by poor fiscal management.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-75032786072954858172010-03-12T09:56:36.088+00:002010-03-12T09:56:36.088+00:00Donald, do you have link to the source for the £6M...Donald, do you have link to the source for the £6M figure? I found an old press release which says the system would be 'worth' £5M - which does not mean quite the same as 'cost' ;-)<br /><br />Nevertheless, it seems clear that the OU does not view Moodle as a cul-de-sac as they maintain a high degree of involvement in Moodle development.<br /><br />With 200,000+ online students (for whom online is the primary or *only* mode of interaction with their courses), I wonder how much they'd have spent if they'd used *any* alternative system?<br /><br />Then consider whether the alternative would have been as open to customisation and modification...Ethics and Transparency In Politicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05640095215313792577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-68551658187605664782010-03-11T20:05:01.804+00:002010-03-11T20:05:01.804+00:00Well this is semi-timely for me, as I just downloa...Well this is semi-timely for me, as I just downloaded the latest Mac version to begin "sandboxing" with on my home network. Not sure I'll actually get to that for another several months what with school and all. But hey, at least I can chalk it up to positive thinking for the future.Paul Angilerihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04806213503008876743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-53866113499342250412010-03-11T18:59:42.050+00:002010-03-11T18:59:42.050+00:00Antonio
Bit puzzled by some of the comments, as I ...Antonio<br />Bit puzzled by some of the comments, as I really do like Moodle and am glad it exists. My points were trying to address the current dilemmas it faces in the market. <br /><br />You say, "Then, when one reader points out Moodle is actually great, he says ok, “it’s all good”". I actually meant that. That's why I praised Enovation, LearningPool, Kineo and others. I'm on your side, really!<br /><br />As for "cynical words from the critic-du-jour" I've been in this business for over 25 years long before Moodle was ever though of, and have seen LMSs come and go. However, I'm not 'selling' anything - just offering some opinions.<br /><br />"Why Clark’s piece is on Moodle and not on BB?"<br />I didn't write about Blackboard because the post was about Moodle. It wasn't a comparison piece. As it happens I've been far more critical of Blackboard in this blog than Moodle. You may as well have asked "Why Clark's piece is not on . I'm always puzzled by the loose use of Counterfactuals.<br /><br />"It’s not Moodle which cost 6 million British Pounds. Moodle was free" What I actually said was that "they spent nearly £6 million 2 years ago (a cool million on Moodle development alone) and that was just the pilot!" I clearly did NOT say that £6 million was spent on Moodle. The point I was making was that while Moodle may be free, it has other costs. I'm not alone in thinking that the OU work was not as fruitful as it could have been. Indeed, I gave OpenLearn a sound critique on launch.<br /><br />While I agree with your observations on the weakness of current 'courses' I see the academic obsession with 'lectures' as the problem. Where we differ is in enforcing so-called 'constructivist' approaches. I say so-called because I don't believe that constructivism (as touted in education departments) is a serious or viable theory of learning.<br /><br />Seriously, thanks for the comments, bit I repeat, I'm on your side and just want to see some debate on where we go from here.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-43742505070639411312010-03-11T18:21:05.708+00:002010-03-11T18:21:05.708+00:00Hi there,
I just commented your post within my bl...Hi there,<br /><br />I just commented your post within my blog (http://blogs.netedu.info)... hope to raise the temperature!<br />Antonio VantaggiatoAntonio Vantaggiatohttp://blogs.netedu.infonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-89027014818566983172010-03-10T01:30:53.404+00:002010-03-10T01:30:53.404+00:00I think the most important question you raise is w...I think the most important question you raise is what to do about the non Moodle partner companies who are nonetheless selling and implementing successful Moodle installations. <br />I think there has actually been some high quality code returned to the community from folks at OU.<br />I also think that Moodle 2.0 is exemplifying the idea of playing well with others. No company or school is going to be happy with a single piece of software. The largest advantage of the messy Moodle ecosystem is that many folks have hacked Moodle to plug into many systems. This should get even easier with Moodle 2.0.<br /><br />As for the pedagogy piece, my experience is that Moodle does teacher centered very well. Then teachers are trained in a system that has some very good tools for student interaction (better than Bb in my opinion). <br /><br />As a final note, I was just at a tech conference and presented a few sessions on Moodle to packed rooms of K12 teachers and ed tech folks. Maybe this sector can help fund and stabilize a brand of the Moodle monster ;)Colinhttp://www.cytochromec.net/blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-33439263729671284262010-03-09T16:48:35.851+00:002010-03-09T16:48:35.851+00:00Thanks Michael. Remember that I'm not knocking...Thanks Michael. Remember that I'm not knocking Moodle (think it is great) simply trying to understand what it is (now many things) and where it's going.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-1800767088850926472010-03-09T16:44:03.255+00:002010-03-09T16:44:03.255+00:00Hi Donald,
Sorry - didn't mean to leave you ha...Hi Donald,<br />Sorry - didn't mean to leave you hanging (or seem absolutist)! <br /><br />I think that you've opened up a pertinent and facinating debate (in fact I just sent a twit/tweet/whatever 10 mins ago pointing people here), but John Cleese in the Parrot Sketch I was just wishing to register an [initial] complaint with your hypothesis.<br /> <br />Like Mark B. I'm going to develop my response in a blog post, and link it back to here. <br /><br />Keep up the great blogging,<br />Best,<br />Michael<br />--Michael Hanleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07213504001447084845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-75959419044481474682010-03-09T16:33:44.623+00:002010-03-09T16:33:44.623+00:00Whatever happened to debate! Wrong in what ways?Whatever happened to debate! Wrong in what ways?Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-54463291330433697742010-03-09T15:50:37.118+00:002010-03-09T15:50:37.118+00:00Interesting viewpoints... provocative post... wron...Interesting viewpoints... provocative post... wrong in many ways... <br />Certainly diverging sharply from my practical, successful, documented, empirically-researched experiences using both Moodle (a technology) <i>and</i> Constructivism (a learning theory) - <a href="http://michaelhanley.ie/elearningcurve" rel="nofollow">much discussed on my blog</a> - but interesting nonetheless...<br /><br />Can I poke Jay in the eye about the "theory" of Connectivism? :-)<br /><br />Michael<br />--Michael Hanleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07213504001447084845noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-83411534062202220462010-03-09T13:50:33.250+00:002010-03-09T13:50:33.250+00:00Granted - but in education and training this has t...Granted - but in education and training this has turned into a pandemic of surface talk about constructivism, learning styles etc etc , which is positively harmful, as people are spending money on the back of ill-understood concepts. The language of learning is fuzzy, dated and destructive.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-63198779147015470702010-03-09T12:52:03.568+00:002010-03-09T12:52:03.568+00:00Hi Donald,
As Karyn says, I would tend to agree t...Hi Donald,<br /><br />As <a href="http://karynromeis.blogspot.com/2010/03/on-not-needing-to-know.html" rel="nofollow">Karyn says</a>, I would tend to agree that most people who use terms don't really understand the theory behind them.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />MarkMark Berthelemyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17812278774682999567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-9360575178929182762010-03-09T12:41:57.855+00:002010-03-09T12:41:57.855+00:00Very good extension to this debate Mark, although ...Very good extension to this debate Mark, although I'm not convinced about 'constructivism' full stop, never mind the Moodle support for such an approach. In my experience, the use of the word 'constructivist' is rarely backed up by any actual knowledge of what it means cognitively, other than a rough idea around 'constructing models in your mind as you learn'. I, personally, have found Vygotsky et al opaque and useless in the psychology of learning and to be honest, I'm not sure if even 1 in 50 of those who say they believe in constructivism have actually read any of the theory.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-65569811251685620282010-03-09T07:55:26.015+00:002010-03-09T07:55:26.015+00:00Hi Don,
My comments got too long - so I popped the...Hi Don,<br />My comments got too long - so I popped them onto <a href="http://www.learningconversations.co.uk/main/index.php/2010/03/09/response-to-donald-clark-moodle-e-learning-s-frankenstein?blog=5" rel="nofollow">my blog</a>Mark Berthelemyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17812278774682999567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-4038541711953960862010-03-08T07:07:05.127+00:002010-03-08T07:07:05.127+00:00:D n like Jay I am also looking forward to what co...:D n like Jay I am also looking forward to what comments this shall receive :)Navehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16838811603319387589noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-64034594449177042162010-03-08T07:04:20.502+00:002010-03-08T07:04:20.502+00:00Moodle I believe is just a tool. Pedagogy is not a...Moodle I believe is just a tool. Pedagogy is not about a tool it is about the approach. You can use it for instinctive - scenario driven approach to learning.. or intuitive - process driven approach to learning... Vygotsky model says nothing but how the knowledge circles with overlapping and non-overlapping regions get up on the table. The user may chose to focus on which section he/she wants to get into. The idea is to put as much on table as you can, so that you know what is there and what you can chose from.. The I-teach-you-learn model or what I call process driven models to learning would educate you for whats already in there, all documented, with some set of approaches, that there are and they can be dealt with.. It however ends killing the idea of thinking out of the box and chosing what you want to learn. Learning here is not just focussed or limited to schools, colleges, universities, institutions or corporates as units but more.. it is just like youtube featuring all content with popularity.. Go .. Click .. Search... Explore... Thats foscenario driven approach.. You dont follow a learning path here....<br /><br />Learning in any LMS with the pedagogical constraints of process driven learning is about<br /><br />1. Storing & Access of information<br />2. Communicate<br />3. Evaluate<br />4. Collaborate<br /><br />Moodle fits all of it.. As a toolkit for learning systems, I must say didnt find anything better yet. But yes I do agree the part where you talk about the future of this system where they are going, and how rough and brutal they are with the opensource methodology.. Its no less commercial.. and fearing the possibility of a fork I think they ll soon go the SAS(Software as Service) way!Navehttp://www.navindutta.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-39291945943712001992010-03-08T00:22:14.748+00:002010-03-08T00:22:14.748+00:00Jay - it's a fascinating piece of software and...Jay - it's a fascinating piece of software and a meteroic trajectory across the mess that is the LMS market. Didn't really want to offend anyone, just point out some of the fractures that are emerging.<br /><br />John - it's all good.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-55378687868094908042010-03-07T22:32:55.123+00:002010-03-07T22:32:55.123+00:00We have used Moodle for about 4 years now. Costs ...We have used Moodle for about 4 years now. Costs very little in ICT technician time and helps us teach students (secondary) the rudiments of what a VLE can do for them in school and as they move through the educational system. It easily imports SCORM compliant external content and forms part of the curriculum delivery. Much better than paying a FORTUNE for what are essentially the same things; a place to access content and help parents, students and staff educate themselves with teacher support.John Wootton UKhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10544027005609476327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-32115371341922271702010-03-07T06:56:08.387+00:002010-03-07T06:56:08.387+00:00Donald, thanks for this post. I've been mystif...Donald, thanks for this post. I've been mystified by Moodle for some time and you just cleared away some of the fog. <br /><br />As usual, I look forward to reading the comments of those who will feel you've just poked them in the eye with a sharp stick.<br /><br />jayjayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16271633210993298646noreply@blogger.com