tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post411819313941344872..comments2024-02-16T08:32:46.618+00:00Comments on Donald Clark Plan B: Bandler NLP: No Longer Plausible: training’s shameful, fraudulent cult?Donald Clarkhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-70945389758328086302020-12-31T06:30:46.957+00:002020-12-31T06:30:46.957+00:00Thank you so much for this nice information. Hope ...Thank you so much for this nice information. Hope so many people will get aware of this and useful as well.<br /><br /><a href="https://www.tex-ai.com" rel="nofollow">Text Analytics Software</a><br /><br /><a href="https://www.tex-ai.com/text-analytics/" rel="nofollow">Text Analytics Tool</a><br /><br /><a href="https://www.tex-ai.com/text-extraction/" rel="nofollow">Text Extraction Tool</a><br /><br /><a href="https://www.tex-ai.com/text-classification/" rel="nofollow">Text Classification Tool</a><br /><br /><a href="https://www.tex-ai.com/text-summarization/" rel="nofollow">Text Summarization Tool</a>Charleshttps://www.tex-ai.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-73146021031881268322020-12-24T11:58:26.978+00:002020-12-24T11:58:26.978+00:00forum.flickergate
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As for the guy who has a qualification from the Institute of psychiatry - read what they have to say about NLP - http://www.kcl.ac.uk/nursing/newsevents/news/2012/Little-evidence-for-NLP-in-Healthcare.aspx<br />Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-35510431796894611602016-10-05T10:47:01.905+00:002016-10-05T10:47:01.905+00:00This book: https://www.amazon.com/Clinical-Effecti...This book: https://www.amazon.com/Clinical-Effectiveness-Neurolinguistic-Programming-Appraisal/dp/0415635152 — The Clinical Effectiveness of Neurolinguistic Programming: A Critical Appraisal — goes over the research that supports NLP, discusses its quality, and points the direction for future research. <br /><br />Josh A.https://www.blogger.com/profile/07266573871897890741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-41212694549994242122016-06-26T08:22:13.913+00:002016-06-26T08:22:13.913+00:00Hi Donald, I just want to say thank you for your g...Hi Donald, I just want to say thank you for your good article about bogus NLP. All your detractors have proven is that some ppl will just keep spouting something based on personal belief regardless of any real science. They're all experiencing placebo, it's not a bad thing, which could just come from persuasive, charismatic, genuinely well meaning practitioners of nlp who might succeed just by being supportive and attentive, or mixing in more proven material without realising or just incorporating common sense. All these can help, even just having a person who takes the time to try encouraging a person and check their progress could be a pick me up or confidence boost a person needs. That does not mean it's not placebo. if nlp is mumbo jumbo pseudoscience then you are right to call them out on it. <br /><br />You don't seem to have an "angle" peddling blind faith in placebo like some of the replies, it's quite simple; if the evidence doesn't stack up then you drop the failed model and move on.<br /><br />If the nlp crowd is so dismissive and contemptuous of the science which debunked them, well then fine, but they should come out and say their thing is non evidence based, blind faith based, anecdotal personal stories and testimonials, and stop calling it science. Anecdote is no better than an ad for used cars which says " I bought a car here and they sure helped me!" No matter how many such replies are posted, science is the method by which you test, if it performs no better than helpful supportive placebo coaching with science sounding window dressing, then it is basically nothing special. People are all free to do what they want, if they wanna waste their own money on window dressing it's their business, but not everything deserves to be called science. And for the person who says there's simply no evidence for nlp 'yet' ...well likewise there's no evidence for a flat earth (yet) but don't hold your breath waiting for it to be found, because it doesn't deserve endless research to keep seeing it's not there, that's why the research by serious students has dropped off. Ben goldacre in his book "bad science" does a great expose of nlp and other bunk parading around with "sciencey" <br />words. <br /><br />Keep up the good work on your blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-61431920723820131592016-03-09T10:19:57.858+00:002016-03-09T10:19:57.858+00:00Stupid Ponzi scheme spam from NLP.....Stupid Ponzi scheme spam from NLP.....Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-91129039456396274302016-03-09T10:17:24.255+00:002016-03-09T10:17:24.255+00:00I should thank you for writing on this topic, very...I should thank you for writing on this topic, very useful information you have given through this blog regarding education sector. I will visit again to get more information.<br /><a href="http://www.lifetrainingsystems.com/" rel="nofollow">NLP Courses</a>nlpcourse01https://www.blogger.com/profile/01879166507160255771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-84433812755088632792016-02-28T11:12:53.988+00:002016-02-28T11:12:53.988+00:00Really bad "reasoning". "Scientific...Really bad "reasoning". "Scientific" proven always relies on certain, artificial assumptions. You change the parameters, you change the result. You use old "psychological" parameters for "objective" "scientific" testing, you get results based on that. <br />Now, Bandler and many, many others claim that the psychology you refer to is non-working and out-dated. I certainly believe so.<br />You say that personal experience was so indicator that it worked - WHAT ELSE? <br />And _everything_ _always_ is in the human mind. <br />So you also can't rely on a statement of someone who says it doesn't work if he didn't do the work itself within himself due to lack of understanding oder yes, belief. Because everything is belief. <br />Your science is not _the_ reality. Reality is what you present within yourself and what you create yourself. My point here is that this is a truth which has been stated a LONG time before Bandler was born.<br />- - -<br />You refer to NLP techniques which are NO LONGER a part of NLP!!!! For MANY years, eye movements, etc. etc. are out-dated and were replaced by other techniques. Though they are not _entirely_ wrong. <br />NLP uses - what works. It doesn't matter why. <br />- - -<br />Are you speaking out of own experience? <br />Obviously not. <br />I have worked with international teachers from various traditions and the one single experience where truly someone was able to teach me something in a matter of minutes with HUGE change as a result was - Richard Bandler. When I met him personally. <br />And when you talk to him you raelize that he knows - or understands - more about cognitive science and the workings of the human neuropaths than most. <br />But again, that is irrelevant. Because the difference he makes is that he looks at HOW people can USE it for themselves to change in their lives what they individually want to change. <br />And yes, without testing - like what do you suggest, lighting up areas in the brain of the rat? As Bandler stated - people are not rats. You can ASK them. So one personal testimony is absolutely of more value to me that anything else. <br /><br />---<br />However, your socalled "facts" are ridiculous and your presentation of that murder case is the biggest most stupid try to manipulate people into your direction for selling YOUR offers, I have ever seen. <br />What you state is one-sided and not at all! what has been reported. Who are you to judge the statements of Bandler on this event? Or to judge at all? <br />And why would you have to? <br /><br />---<br />I don't think NLP ever claimed to be a science. It is simply a method to find out what works for human beings and to teach them to use that. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-89133363768487933452015-11-15T07:17:53.660+00:002015-11-15T07:17:53.660+00:00I have not read all of the comments in this thread...I have not read all of the comments in this thread so I apologize if my comments have been said before. I have just finished carefully reading Bandler's "Trance-formation" book as part of my hypnotherapy training. I am a physicist, an entrepreneur, I've been training people using neurofeedback for 8 years, and I've been offering regression therapy for the last 9 months. Here are my comments after reading Bandler.<br /><br />- He comes across as a narcissistic megalomaniac. I have met others who fit this description and I believe I can recognize their signature. <br /><br />- One of the consequences of the above point is that Bandler does not have much regard for the boundary between truth and falsehood, as is clearly reflected in his anecdotal method of argument. He has no concern for evidence, analysis, criticism, or the opinion of anyone who does not support him.<br /><br />- His insight in to the use of trance makes his observations interesting to me and to others in the field of hypnotherapy. The intuitive feeling he displays works in conjunction with his inflated sense of self-confidence. It is well known that an essential part of using one's intuition is stilling one's critical mind. Bandler listens, he listens intently. He exercises little hesitation, self criticism, or circumspection.<br /><br />- Bandler flagrantly uses the fact, which is always amazing to recognize, that people in trance are suggestible and pliable to the extent of allowing permanent changes. He will brashly do or say anything to his clients in order to get the result he wants, and his quite proud of it. He does not count his successes against his failures. He erases his failure. He performs experimental psychology on living patients, and there is much to learn in doing so. <br /><br />- He is an extreme example of the latitude granted to psychologists, therapists, coaches, counselors, social workers, energy healers, spirit channels, and shamans. As a physicist I have high hurdles for "truth" and many categories of it. Working in psychology I find low hurdles and few compelling results. This is so typical that most practitioners do not discern levels or even aspire to a high level of truth. These fields are market driven and Bandler is an extraordinary salesman. <br /><br />- I read his book and I found that if I took his hypnotic suggestions at face value, they were insightful and valuable. If I dismissed his NLP which, by the way, plays a minor role in his techniques, then I missed nothing. I believe that Bandler is a poor judge of which part of his skills come from his intuition, and which ride on his NLP techniques. I conclude that few to none of them do.<br /><br />Reading Bandler to learn psychology is like studying Leni Riefenstahl to learn propaganda. There is genius there, and much to be learned by studying it, but there is a fine and delicate line between genius and psychopathology. The two often come together. lincolnstollerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09168816926184736690noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-78859677113707011002013-08-16T22:51:05.424+00:002013-08-16T22:51:05.424+00:00In bad taste? The man was in a room with a drug de...In bad taste? The man was in a room with a drug dealer and his girlfriend, had blood all over him and helped dispose of the body! You can dig all you want Nick but you are unlikely to find that I have been charged with murder. Your second point is the usual point made by NLP fans, that Imust have had a bad experience with NLP. Well no. I have simply looked at the evidence and spoke to many people who do the training and have attended the courses, as I have spentover 30 years in the training industry. If, as you say, there are as many opinions as people on the planet, then why proffer any in comments on blogs that invite debate? I will, as you suggest, continue to do what I do and ignore anonymous posts by people who offer no debate, arguments or data, just the usual childish rubbish.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-1479862750989813752013-08-16T22:40:45.097+00:002013-08-16T22:40:45.097+00:00Donald
It's interesting to read your thoughts...Donald<br /><br />It's interesting to read your thoughts on NLP and how opposed you are to this technology.<br /><br />I was also wondering what your angle is, for want of a better word. Is it that you had a particularly bad experience with NLP or someone involved in NLP?<br /><br />The first thing I noticed about your article was how you launched your "tirade" by digging up some dirt on Richard B. Talk about bad taste! I wonder if someone were to dig up the dirt on you, what they would find - regardless of whether it is true or not?<br /><br />I must say, the article itself was not in very good taste and overall did not do a very good job of convincing anyone that NLP is a dubious practice.<br /><br />Bottom line? Forget about teaching people what you think about NLP, which after all is only your opinion (albeit of course there will be others who share it). There are as many opinions as there people on the planet - everyone has one. Instead, just continue doing whatever it is you do in your quest helping people's lives more fulfilled (or whatever it is).<br /><br />Regards,<br />Nick<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-77233939027104434772013-07-23T08:40:10.745+00:002013-07-23T08:40:10.745+00:00Wow! It's called 'memory, something that w...Wow! It's called 'memory, something that we know a lot about - sensory memory, working memory, long term memory, episodic memory, semantic memory. What we do know about memory is that the so called NLP techniques are of no relevance. If you're going to comment anonymously, make a point.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-61926182413585941482013-07-22T18:26:11.293+00:002013-07-22T18:26:11.293+00:00Wow! You're the guy I've been looking for....Wow! You're the guy I've been looking for. When you think of a past experience, you don't see any images in your head, you don't talk to yourself, you don't hear any sounds in your head, smell or taste anything or feel any feelings related to that experience. So my question is, how do you construct your thoughts? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-73839780317664586852012-06-10T18:50:22.920+00:002012-06-10T18:50:22.920+00:00Great article, Donald. Here's some recent deve...Great article, Donald. Here's some recent deveopments you might be interested in:<br />http://aaenstockdale.wordpress.com/2012/06/07/waging-wikiwar-on-nlp/Craig Aaen Stockdalehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03256466153562443698noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-78457611281752928492012-05-02T17:23:01.555+00:002012-05-02T17:23:01.555+00:00Great article Donald. First visit to your blog btw...Great article Donald. First visit to your blog btw.. Gotta come back for more.<br /><br />Look how cheap is a workshop with Bandler: <br /><br />http://www.nlplifetraining.com/events/personal-enhacement.html<br /><br />Cool way to make money.<br /><br />Greetings from Brazil.Willnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-62996579211660573582012-05-01T20:07:55.417+00:002012-05-01T20:07:55.417+00:00Donald, there is one big difference between NLP an...Donald, there is one big difference between NLP and Astrology or Homeopathy. When someone goes to see an Astrologer(sp?) or a homeopath there is little feedback. The client goes home and either gets a subjective positive result or they don't - and if they don't they I guess they don't come back. This can easily create a false sense of skill.<br /><br />On the other hand, if I see someone for a phobia I know before they leave if I have fixed the phobia or not because I can (and always do) test my work. There isn't a 'single size fits all' cure for most NLP issues - The practitioner often tries several approaches until they find the key to get the result required. <br /><br />The results of many NLP interventions can be seen very simply and there is almost no way for the client to fake it simply to please the practitioner. <br /><br />You still haven't answered my question as to whether NLP practitioners are delusional or liars.Chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-19705758108777490522012-05-01T18:28:15.075+00:002012-05-01T18:28:15.075+00:00The key phrase in 'thousands of NLP practition...The key phrase in 'thousands of NLP practitioners'. This is a self selecting, self-certifying group who have to buy the theory and practice as that is what they are expected to sell. There are thousands of astrologers, homeopaths and sundry other peddlers of oddball theories that have been shown to be false. I find it shameful that HR departments have been fooled into thinking that it really does work. Of course, it doesn't really matter because, apart from the US Army, who stopped using it, it is never evaluated.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-68379471658561767232012-05-01T18:05:39.257+00:002012-05-01T18:05:39.257+00:00Donald, from reading your 4:52pm you seem to have ...Donald, from reading your 4:52pm you seem to have misunderstood my point about your angle. I was just trying to find out where you were coming from - no more no less. Your continued defense is not necessary. <br /><br />The reason for my Virgin mary example was simple - most people would dismiss the event as nonsense but no one bothers to find an explanation - which is why some people may continue to think a supernatural is plausible. <br /> <br />Whatever you think of Bandler (and you've made it very clear), there are thousands of NLP practitioners who have followed his instructions and had results, but the scientists know better which can only mean that we are we all liars or deluded? So if we're deluded than how are we deluded? <br /><br />Is it some kind of placebo effect? <br /><br />Because all that you have is that some scientists have tried a few experiments and couldn't get results to match our experiences.<br />How much experimentation does it take to decide it's all rubbish? Seems to me that they stopped the experiments too soon and should have tried to develop an experiment based on training someone in something made up to see if the trainees could get results. <br /><br />I thought the whole point of science was that scientists were open minded and science changed over time. Not much of that going on here. Even the idea that you can discredit NLP (which is not a single thing as I mentioned before and you ignored) is dubious. <br /><br />Sorry if this is a little rambling, but I think I've made my point.Chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-27384061645794665882012-05-01T16:59:18.850+00:002012-05-01T16:59:18.850+00:00J Hamlyn
Thanks, interesting comment and it really...J Hamlyn<br />Thanks, interesting comment and it really made me think. It's quite possible that a placebo effect or some other hidden cause(s) is at work here, However, the way to test this, is to do the studies. These have been done, and the evidence, when you actually trial these techniques is clear - they don't work. In fact it's the fact that Bandler and co are treated as experts that gives them this aura of credibility, like mediums and astrologers. What it all comes down to is the testimony of the people who sell these services (dodgy for obvious reasons) and the testimony of those who claims it works (self delusion). Having blogged on this subject many times I've had many people also testify, after attending NLP courses, that they're bogus and a waste of time. That's why we have to look at objective evidence.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-13258573071148293882012-05-01T16:52:42.964+00:002012-05-01T16:52:42.964+00:00What's this demand for an 'angle'? I&#...What's this demand for an 'angle'? I've blogged about hundreds of subjects over many years, talked at conferences on dozens of subjects over many years..... I have supported and promoted good theory and practice when I've seen it, and tried to dispel the myths around bogus theory and practice when I see it. Your Virgin Mary argument is odd as it would be up to you not me to prove that you had seen her. I don't have to provide an explanation for your vision. As Christopher Hitchins often says, "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." To repeat myself, I've come across thousands of astrology believers but I don't take them seriously because I can prove it's not true, similarly with NLP. As for Bandler, you can support megalomaniacs like him if you want but I'll say what I think - he's not credible and quite possibly someone capable of putting a Magnum up the nostril of a young woman and blowing her brains out. You keep your company, I'll keep mine!Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-28654398653720498142012-05-01T14:07:53.395+00:002012-05-01T14:07:53.395+00:00Why do you have a have an Angle? Well, you don'...Why do you have a have an Angle? Well, you don't have to, but you've just shown that you do. I wasn't trying to catch you out or suggest there was a financial element, just find out what your 'context' was - why you're interested enough in NLP to write about it.<br /><br />It's very easy to be critical of NLP (and many NLP trainers certainly don't help this), but when so many people have had results and changes in themselves then it simply isn't enough to tell them it's rubbish because science says there is no evidence (yet).<br /><br />If I said I saw the virgin mary appear before me, then you wouldn't be able to convince me simply by saying that its rubbish and that science has seen no evidence for the existence of the virgin mary. You need to provide an alternative explanation for my vision, or in the case of NLP explain why people who were shaking themselves to pieces can be cured of their phobias within ten minutes. Its no good telling me its just personal testimony because its MY personal testimony and I know I didn't make it up - and the same is true for thousands of NLP practitioners throughout the world. How are we seeming to get the results with get if its all rubbish?<br /><br />To be honest you opened yourself up for people to take you less than seriously as soon as you lead the piece with muck slinging at bandler - its nothing new and it hardly sets the tone for scientific rigor.Chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-31812912960806294212012-05-01T13:45:11.992+00:002012-05-01T13:45:11.992+00:00Chris - why do I have to have anangle, beyond teh ...Chris - why do I have to have anangle, beyond teh search for what's right. I've spent 30 years in the education and training business and have witnessed a plethora of po-psychology and pseudoscience invade the field. This is one of the reasons politicians, employers and other managers in businesses see training as 'flaky'. I've spent most of my adult life doing real things in the real world to advance education and training - that's maybe my 'angle'. Getting rid of the nonsense is part of that work.Donald Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00796341486328270474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-28144274315247844342012-05-01T12:59:29.662+00:002012-05-01T12:59:29.662+00:00"The plural of anecdote is NOT data."
Y..."The plural of anecdote is NOT data."<br /><br />Yes, absolutely.<br /><br />I don't think I've posted this link before (hopefully) but there's a really interesting interview of psychologist Nicholas Humphrey by Richard Dawkins that I think you might be interested in on the subject of how alternative medicine works: <br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1AQPue7FEM<br /><br />The reason I think you might find it interesting is because it makes a persuasive case for the role of the expert practitioner as an instigator of, as yet barely understood, processes of change in the individual (in this case the immune system). Might it be possible, do you think, that similar processes might be at work in other instances where people are exposed to 'face to face' meetings with highly respected and regarded individuals whether they are possessed of genuine insight or not? In other words, might all these seemingly bogus positive testimonials regarding NLP be the result of processes that have nothing to do with NLP but something else of which Humphrey elsewhere calls the Evolved Self Management system?: <br /><br />http://edge.org/conversation/the-evolved-self-management-systemJim Hamlynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16488331333061422244noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21077063.post-67699364906152852552012-05-01T11:10:18.818+00:002012-05-01T11:10:18.818+00:00Again donald, you're showing an incredibly poo...Again donald, you're showing an incredibly poor level or reasoning and somewhat crafty writing. You also ignored all the points I made in my post.<br /><br />And as of 10:46, you're implying that - as most people think astrology and homeopathy are rubbish, then stating that NLP and these subjects rely on personal testimonies means - NLP is equivalent to astrology. Nice try, but even you must realize how poor - and unscientific - a comparison you are making. Are you hoping to become a politician?<br /><br />As I mentioned before, NLP is a many headed beast - your collection of scientists have barely studied any of it. And of course scientists are always completely impartial as we've seen in the resent climate change controversy. Actually, that's a joke, my issue with their research is more to do with the specific nature of the research than with their ethics.<br /><br />And as a previous poster asked, whats your angle? I don't believe in the loch ness monster but don't feel the need to spend my life writing about its non-existence.<br /><br />I mean, have you ever actually tried any NLP techniques? Or would that be too subjective for you?Chrisnoreply@blogger.com